At my old blog, I attempted to debate the topic of women who cry rape but it was hopeless – the positions were too entrenched on both sides .  One former female reader refused to accept, point blank, that a woman out on the town independently and drunk, had any responsibility for what happened to her in a room full of drunken men.

They should have all been gentlemen, she hotly maintained.  It’s not the woman’s place to look after herself or take any measures herself.  You can imagine what the men thought of that.

Most girls want to play with the boys and be part of the gang which goes out and has a good time.  Sex is an unspoken part of that but what those men who let those women tag along don’t realize is that the girls, even though they’ve  placed themselves in the power of those boys/men, still think some sort of ancient chivalry applies. They’re not averse to the sex but it has to be according to their rules and they expect to be respected afterwards.

They’re seriously deluded if they think males operate by that double standard.

If girls jump into boys’ cars, then all bets are off and there’s only one outcome.  Now that can be consensual or rape but it is expected, by those boys, that that’s what the girls were agreeing to when they got into the car.  That the girls don’t see it that way is neither here nor there to predatory males en masse.

In a newspaper article by Dr Leslie Cannold, in the Melbourne Age, she quotes a TV presenter:

TV presenter Kerri-Anne Kennerley laid the blame on the ”strays” who ”throw … themselves at sportspeople. What do [those women] expect,” she asked, ”when they are out at night?”

50% of women appear to agree.

I suspect that that was not exactly how that lady had put it. However, moving on, obviously there are other, higher strata of women who are a bit more selective than jumping into the lions’ enclosure for the night and thinking they won’t be mauled by the morning.

Then there are women who go out only with men who have a sense of chivalry, they’d expect to be protected and in return, they themselves have the word No in their vocabulary.

This is a more highly evolved species which used to exist, decades ago and the occasional specimen can still be found. This is the type for whom the word “lady” is not tantamount to “boring”. This is the type of woman who doesn’t measure herself by the notches on her bedpost or by how much pleasure she got from her last lover.

I think you get my drift. This is the sort of woman about whom this post has been written.

Claimed rape

Leslie Cannold wrote:

I have been raped. Twice. The first time was my first time – I was 17 – but I didn’t think of it as rape. Not even when the nightmares began and, following that, the depression.

I just thought I was a stupid girl who put myself in harm’s way and got what I deserved. Embarrassed at being so dumb, I told no one what happened. It was only years later when I stubbed my toe and couldn’t stop crying that my mother strong-armed me into seeing a psychologist and the story came out.

The second time was when an old boyfriend got my half-asleep roommate to let him into the house in the middle of the night. I was in my room and woke having sex. Surely this was a clear-cut case of rape but, again, I didn’t see it that way. Because now I was 21 and understood that you can’t thread a moving needle and I’d had sex with him before so what was the big deal and if I hadn’t wanted it why didn’t I scream?

In fact, what I did – then and later – was pretend everything was fine. I acted like what happened was exactly what I chose to happen. I was not prepared to contemplate the alternative framing of events and its emotional corollary – that I’d been raped again and this meant that I wasn’t safe anywhere, not even in my own bed.

This account was meant to illustrate that however innocent a woman is, a man can still worm his way into her bed and rape her.  We’re not talking here about a stranger breaking in and doing the unspeakable, we’re not talking about a complete innocent.  She goes on to say that she’d had sex with him many times before.

Now my first reaction was WTF?  Her “half-asleep” roommate let him in to rape her?  Some friend and some boyfriend.  Also, was the roommate male or female?  It is relevant.  She either completely misses the point that she had chosen pretty dubious company in the first place or else she is glossing over that, trying to make it seem that it is irrelevant in the context of rape.

And why, when she woke from her drunken stupour, with him inside, did she not shout and scream, moving the eye of the needle so that he couldn’t?  There is an answer to that question.  Fine, if those are her life choices but to attempt to cheapen the definition of rape,  a definition highly relevant to men in terms of possible jail time, to blur that definition, in an attempt to throw all guilt off herself, is both very female and most disingenuous.

That boy obviously knew he could get away with that.  If he thought she’d play merry hell, then he wouldn’t have tried it on.  So what she is saying is: “I’m liberated, I sleep with various men and having given them those signals about what I’m like, they [not the brightest stars in the firmament], took advantage of it and I then called it rape.

Ms Cannold seems to understand it at first:

Like young women today, I was sold a double message. The explicit one was that I was strong, capable and free to do what I chose with my life and body – sexually and otherwise – and not be judged for it.  The subterranean one was that if I acted as if I was entitled to be both free and safe, and someone did hurt or rape me, it was my own stupid, sluttish fault.

Yes, she’s not wrong.  Women who sleep with male friends on that basis are not innocents, as she tries to make out she was.  If that was a male roommate, then that was nice company she was in, alone.  If it was a female roommate, then what the hell was she doing, letting this rapist in?

“Half asleep”?  Sorry, I don’t buy that scenario, as stated. Half asleep, her roommate gets up and stumbles over to the door to unlock it?  Whyever would he/she do that?

Then Ms Cannold reverts to the standard “take no responsibility” position:

One thing that helped was the acknowledgment by one of the men that something bad had happened and it wasn’t my fault.

Note she didn’t write “wasn’t all my fault”.  She wrote “wasn’t my fault”.  And “one of the men”.  There was more than one?

This was several years later and we were at a party. He found me alone on the balcony and said this: ”What happened … that night. I didn’t realise then but I do now. It wasn’t right. I shouldn’t have done it.” I forgave him right then and there.

I’m sorry but this woman is away with the fairies – she simply can’t have it both ways.  If she lives that lifestyle, with such kinds of people, then she is not innocent and that lifestyle is going to bite her back.

Genuine rape

Here is the crux of the matter.  What is genuine?  A tale:

My own WN2 worked for the Family Law Court, around the time that the principle of rape within marriage took hold.  Now she knew full well that I never continued if she stopped me but on this occasion, she did that sudden, sweet surrender thing.  Now we can argue about this till the cows come home and I want women to be honest here.

Have you never given “no” signals, observing his progress and letting them gradually become  “yeses” as he breaks your defences down?  Personally, I think this whole breaking defences bit is partly to assuage the male ego, partly to transfer guilt and partly because, once stimulated, it is hard for a woman to stop and therefore it is his responsibility to stop but we can discuss that another time.

Well, this was the situation here and I admit that, right at that moment, I pushed the last defences aside.  She said to me, after the event, “That was rape.”   I waited for her to develop the theme but that was it.  She’d just wanted to make the point and absolve herself of guilt over it, establishing mine.  Just why there had to be any guilt in the first place I still haven’t fathomed but what I do know is that no relationship can survive that Sword of Damocles.

A second tale, names altered for my book but it happened as stated:

He nodded. ‘I was with a woman who was raped.’

‘Tell me.’

‘I didn’t witness it, I met her after the event. I knew her when we were both students at university, she was a keen hiker and I liked walking too. We arranged that on the Saturday morning, I’d pick her up about 09:00 in my car – she didn’t drive – and we’d go to the forest.’

‘What was her name?’

‘I seriously can’t remember.’ He thought for a minute. ‘No, it’s gone. It might come back. Anyway, she was ready with her pack and we went to the forest, parking at the foot of the hill and climbing to the peak. Then we stopped for lunch.’

‘Was she pretty?’

‘I think so. I really can’t remember. You see, I saw her as a hiker, as a new mate. So, we were on the second sandwich, I think, when she said to me, ‘I was raped last night.’

To a boy, those words were terrifying. I’d been brought up to believe it was the ultimate crime to do that.  What I couldn’t get over was that she was still willing to go to the forest with me after that. I never understood how she could stand it.’

‘Did she let you make love to her?’

‘I never tried, to be honest. And after she told me, that was the last thing I would have done – it seemed wrong.’

Sophie sighed. ‘You were too young. You needed to take her hand and tell her it was all right, that not all men are like that.  I think it was very important to her, to go with you.’

‘How do you know?’

‘Look, she took you to the forest the morning after a rape.  You didn’t take her. She was extending to you great trust, great faith.

Frankly, I’d hate to be either  a woman or a jailbird.   If you were a woman, perhaps halfway decent looking, you’d always have males mentally undressing you, always wanting to be inside your most private parts, your whole body is a series of erogenous zones [whereas a male has but one and a half] and if a goodlooking man was the one mentally undressing you, that’s OK but there are also all the old men and geeks doing it too.

You’d constantly be wanting to be wanted for your mind, for what you say and for what you’ve achieved.  You’d want your opinions to carry just as much weight as a man’s.  I can understand all that.  And it is less safe for a woman and apart from jail, less fraught that way for men.

I’ve tried to imagine being a woman – to be able to empathize.  I think if a man had wined and dined me and had made it clear that I had the whip hand in this thing and if I let him in, then that could never be rape.  But if he stepped outside my wishes, even if they changed, then that could be rape, depending on my feelings for him.

At least, I imagine it might be that way for a woman.

Where’s the cutoff point?

It seems to me that only a few women understand what it is like, biologically, for a man.  Once he gets past a certain point and has been allowed to get that far and feels it is on – when he is in the home straight – then he simply can’t stop.  It’s stupid when women say he can always stop, as she can … because we are simply not wired that way.

WN1 pulled that one on me.  Right at the moment, she asked me to wait one more night.  I did stop but the next night, there was no way I could have stopped.  That was the only sexual game she ever pulled, that first night.  The second night, she knew I couldn’t stop and neither could she.  She never once cried rape or played sexual politics, rationing supply.

When is it rape?

I accept that she has the right to say no at almost any point but if she leaves it till the last second, she’s crazy.  She might win a rape case in our topsy-turvy society and  its legal system but she should then be a social pariah, especially with men.

Crying rape, when it is clearly not so, is despicable and she deserves jail herself for that.

Having said all that, if she exerts wisdom in choosing her man but if he turns out to be a neanderthal and if he ignores her genuine “no” and if she was not dressed deliberately to provoke his libido and if she is seriously upset and traumatized and doesn’t only think of calling it rape some days later and if she is of age and not mentally deficient, then that is certainly rape – whether within a marriage or another relationship.

Not wanting to report it

From one of many sites:

Many women feel shame when they are raped. If you watch enough crime shows you will see why they stay quiet. Lawyers that rip them to shreds, a system that allows that to happen, revelation of their sexual past, all in an attempt to save their client who raped her. Many just want to go on with life as a lesson learned.

How traumatic is it?  If you look at that student who supposedly lost her scholarship for that porn movie, then not at all.  Going into a room and valuing your internal privacy so little shows close to zero trauma.

Can a prostitute be raped?

According to Pretty Woman, yes, once she has ideas that she is no longer a prostitute and a person of value to someone.  Anyone who touches her then, unwanted by her, is raping her.

By the way, is this every woman’s secret fantasy?  And why, when women go out of an evening, are the sides of their mammaries exposed, while a man would be looked at strangely if the side of his member was also cunningly revealed?

Society’s mores?

Guilt and shame

Why do so many women these days not put any premium on their bodies, sleeping with anyone?  Why does the fetish with disrobing at any cost nearly always trump modesty and intrigue?  Why is the throwing off of any personal morality a sign of liberation to women?

A Basque country survey found women feel guilt far more than men.  Do they?  I read one article where the woman said it was fine to screw around with anyone because some Bridget woman did it in Sex and the City and so women should follow that in order to be liberated and to be as bad as men.

A more sane response to that came from a Jennifer Hancock:

When I was a teenager, my mother, who normally gave really good advice impressed on me how important it was to play the field. I found this advice odd, and had trouble understanding why my normally conservative mother would be telling me to go out with so many guys. It turns out that her advice was dead on, and by following it, I saved myself from a lot of heartache.

It is a mistake to get intimate with someone just because they are available and you haven’t really shopped around to find out if they are right for you or not. Playing the field in the early stages of dating ensures that when you do select someone to become more intimate with, that you are choosing them because you like them the most and that they are the most suitable for you of all your suitors.

There were times in my dating life that I was dating 4 or more men simultaneously. I never lied to any of them about what I was doing, never had trouble keeping track of them and, I never felt guilty. Playing the field is simply the best way to find a future mate, but there are some basic ground rules to follow if you plan to play the field.

1) Understand that dating someone isn’t the same as being in a relationship with them. Dating is about having fun and determining if you are compatible. Physical intimacy should be limited to kissing and light petting. Sex is best left to mutually exclusive relationships, which will benefit for your health as well as your heart.

2) Do not lie. It is important that your suitors understand that you are just dating, and specifically, that you are dating other men in addition to them. This helps you to keep the fledgling relationship from getting too intimate too quickly, and ensures that the gentlemen in question understand the playing field they are on so there are no misunderstandings. Honesty also makes juggling multiple men guilt free.

3) Do not kiss and tell. While it is OK to let the various men in your life know that you are dating other guys, it is not OK to give them details. This means no names, no background information and no talking about what you did on a date with someone else. It is mean and counter productive to try and make the various men in your life jealous in that way.

4) Let the losers leave. There are men who will not be OK with you dating and keeping intimacy levels light. These men either want sex right away or they are excessively possessive. Either way, those are men you don’t really want to be with anyway.

5) Mutual Exclusivity. Within a few months, it should become clear that there is one man you prefer above all the others. If this is the case, it is appropriate to discuss whether or not to make the dating relationship exclusive. This must be a joint decision and one that is made explicitly. If you both decide to date exclusively, congratulations, you are now in a bona fide relationship. If however, he does not want to date you exclusively, then it is probably best to look elsewhere for love.

That seems good advice.  Why must it always go the whole way?  Why can’t people play the field but reserve their N1 for an exclusive partner?  Then, any other sexual relations become either rape or cheating.

The ones I feel sorry for are the women who did not put themselves into any position which was inviting rape, who, within the context of modern fashions, were relatively modest, whilst still not hiding their shape in sackcloth, who are open to conversation but anything more is to be negotiated and who were raped, maybe by someone lying in wait and overpowering them.

Now, that is rape and is despicable.  Again, imagining myself as that woman [or man in prison], the sense of violation and deep anger would scar me.  Guilt?  I’d feel none whatever.  For what?  There was nothing in that situation I could have done to avoid it.

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8 comments for “Rape

  1. Patrick Harris
    October 10, 2010 at 16:13

    Why don’t they offer to partake of a bit of fellatio and bite the bloody thing off.

  2. October 10, 2010 at 22:50

    Un-consensual sexual activity is rape now matter which way you wrap it up and try to argue base instincts. That goes for either of the sexes.

    Both sexes should be aware of what can happen and be guarded by it.

    I don’t agree that it is a mail instinct and they can’t stop themselves. I have too many male friends to have conversations with, one to one encounters with to know that is not true.

    So in my opinion you need to rethink what the problem is…

  3. October 10, 2010 at 22:51

    mail instinct? oops sorry for the typo

  4. October 10, 2010 at 23:15

    Long experience, Cherie, long experience. As stated at the beginning, the male and female are never going to agree, for the simple reason that the female can’t feel what it is like for the male and vice versa. So with this same attitude, the rape allegations will continue and expensive litigation will continue to hurt both parties.

    I’m referring, of course, only to a situation where it gets to the point. Of course he can stop up to that point. That last few moments is the whole crux around which the court decides. I’d suggest the court can never decide that.

  5. October 10, 2010 at 23:31

    I have a long experience too. Over the years most of my friends have been male and non of them would have forced themselves on a female. They may have tried it on but no they would never have taken the female by force.

    All my male friends in RL would agree with me.

    Your post doesn’t reflect that you are meaning it doesn’t describe your point.

    Now getting to the point you said you were trying to convey. The females playing games with the males. They (the females) get what they deserve and I feel sorry for the males who have to suffer the fall out from that.

  6. October 10, 2010 at 23:54

    No one is referring in this section, Cherie, to forcing oneself upon anyone. I just said that when you are in the home stretch – meaning it is consensual to that point – then you can’t call rape the next day or some days down the track.

    It all comes down to the point of when consensual ends and antagonistic begins. Tyson was a good case in point. Most women and some men, in polls, said it was rape. The vast majority of men said it was not rape.

    She went voluntarily to the room of this known beast. She accepted it until a point and then decided no. Some days later, after consultation with her mother, they decided it was rape. My point is that that court had no way to determine what that situation truly was.

    He did not go to her room – she went to his, voluntarily.

    I’d suggest that that sort of thing most certainly has grey areas, whereas the entry of someone’s house and rape would be a clearcut case no one would argue with.

    I’ve seen stats of between 6% and 40% of rape claims being ultimately shown to be false and often with malice. Even women are coming out against these people because it ultimately threatens convictions in the 60% to 94% of cases which are genuine.

    I’ve twice been in a situation where a raped woman was with me afterwards for support and in one of those cases, I had to go on to testify to her state. It was nothing like the scene we’re arguing about above. It was brutal from beginning to end, including in court.

  7. October 11, 2010 at 00:02

    This last reply should have been the post you made.

    It makes your point quite clear.

  8. October 11, 2010 at 00:55

    Well, better to get there in the end than not to.

    Just thinking back to that case with Tyson, it did come down to whether he locked the door once she was in and that might have been what sunk him in the end. If he had done that, she might have been terrified and one would have to say it then sure looked like rape.

    A man “forcing himself onto a woman” is a discussion all on its own. What is forcing? May I give an example?

    Perhaps my lovemaking was strange but I always thought it went through a number of stages – the getting to know one another over a period of time, the dates, the eventual date when it is pretty clear from all the signals that something might happen this evening. I’ve always been both slow on the uptake and reticent at this stage – always have. Perhaps it’s a fear of reading the signals wrongly.

    So usually she has to make it a bit obvious without making it obvious, which surprises her, given his manner up till then. So they go home and the usual process takes place. What I’m saying is that well before the actual denouement, quite a few other things have been occurring and so it’s not likely to be a failure to communicate by that stage.

    I mean that he is probably not involved in an internal conflict with himself as to whether a court would say he’s raping her or not. The thoughts going through his mind are not likely to be about that.

    What he would be doing is reading her body language at this point and she doesn’t need to say yea or nay. If she freezes up or gets a bit reticent, I’d imagine most men would pick up on that, look at her and raise a questioning eyebrow [assuming the moonlight is streaming through the window].

    Now, what I didn’t want to explain in graphic detail was that there is a point any time now where the whole thing is pretty lively from both parties and they’re tuned into one another. This is what I mean by “home stretch” in the post. I think both have reason to suppose that the act itself [the only aspect the court is interested in but as I’d assume most know – only one part of the whole night] is probably now going to occur. I’m not explaining it well.

    Now, that’s the point I referred to in the post where if she did suddenly want to stop [and don’t forget that condoms have probably come into the process by now and that is malice aforethought on the part of both of them], then there might be a delay between that and its registration in his brain.

    I mean, my thought at that point is not that she’s going to say no. My thought is whether the pillow is comfortable for her or if … well, no need to go on with that. Now, the woman near the end of the post mentions “the eye of the needle”. Well yes – if for some reason, at this late stage, she doesn’t want, then she’ll shift her body and that’s sufficient signal for someone with half a brain.

    There is also a word called emotion and if that is running high – assuming the lovers are not cold fish – then a late refusal might take some picking up. It would probably require a physical movement, usually on her part although I did stop through guilt once or twice.

    But for her to come back a few days later, having given no such signals at all and call it rape – that would be despicable.

    That’s what I meant by there being a point where it is well nigh impossible to stop.

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